Netflix's Love is Blind is like a bad relationship that's hard to give up. We've had doubts. We've had fights. And now, in its sixth season, we just can't seem to call it quits. This season has more strange proposals, more fights between people who obviously should not get married, and more moments when we find ourselves saying, "Really, Love Is Blind?"
Audio transcript
LINDA HOLMES, HOST:
Netflix's "Love Is Blind" is like a bad relationship that's hard to give up. We haven't exactly had a whirlwind romance - we've had doubts. We've had fights. And now, in its sixth season, we just can't seem to call it quits.
AISHA HARRIS, HOST:
This season has more strange proposals sight unseen, more fights between people who are engaged but obviously should not get married, and more moments when we find ourselves saying, really? Love is blind? I'm Aisha Harris.
HOLMES: And I'm Linda Holmes. And today we're talking about "Love Is Blind" on POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
HOLMES: Joining us today is Ronald Young Jr. He is the host of the film and television review podcast "Leaving The Theater" and the Ambi-nominated podcast "Weight For It." Hi, Ronald.
RONALD YOUNG JR: I am glad to be a part of this experiment, Linda.
(LAUGHTER)
HOLMES: And also joining us for this experiment is Jarrett Hill. He's the co-author of the book "Historically Black Phrases." Hey, Jarrett.
JARRETT HILL: Hey there. Thanks for having me.
HOLMES: I'm so excited to talk about "Love Is Blind" with you guys, I got to say.
(LAUGHTER)
HOLMES: You probably know how "Love Is Blind" works by now. This show deals exclusively in hetero couples for now. So the setup is that the men and the women date - big scare quotes around "date" - by sitting in adjacent opaque pods, which are really just like little conference rooms where they can hear each other but not see each other.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "LOVE IS BLIND")
CHELSEA: I love a sunset, a good cold Coors Light and add those together - forget about it.
TREVOR: Wasn't that Gandhi that said that?
(LAUGHTER)
HOLMES: It was. It was Gandhi who said that. I'm absolutely certain of it. Eventually, if a couple is getting along, the guy "proposes" - more scare quotes - to the woman. They get engaged if she says yes, and then they get out of the pods and lay eyes on each other for the first time. They spend a couple of weeks living together, and that's supposed to tell them whether they should go ahead and get married. If this sounds like a ridiculous way to get married, it definitely is one. This season, a handful of couples made it out of the pods to try their hands at being engaged. As we record this, the finale just aired on Netflix, so we know which couples got married and who got dumped at the altar. But we haven't seen the reunion.
(LAUGHTER)
HILL: Oh, I'm so triggered.
HOLMES: Yeah, the reunion is always a highlight, so we don't know yet which couples stayed together, but there's a lot to talk about. Ronald, you are one of my Love Is Blind guys in my phone, in my texting world. Who this season really captured your "Love Is Blind" imagination?
YOUNG: Oh, man, that's a tough - oh, my God, I don't even know how to answer that question. I think...
HOLMES: Oh, it's so hard.
YOUNG: First of all, this is for me the best season in the last three seasons...
HOLMES: OK.
YOUNG: ...I want to say, in terms of mess.
HOLMES: Sure.
YOUNG: Like, I love watching mess on television. I love this type of drama. But in terms of, like, who I was watching the most, it was probably Jimmy and Chelsea.
HOLMES: Jimmy and Chelsea.
YOUNG: As they're filming the scene where they finally break up, there is a look on Jimmy's face of both fear and resolve that happens as this breakup is happening.
HOLMES: Yeah.
YOUNG: And that's when I felt like he really, truly became an adult in this, when he actually said, nah, this has to be over.
HOLMES: And here's the thing about Jimmy and Chelsea, though. Like, Jimmy and Chelsea kind of go through this relationship where in the pods, they actually both have other people that they're interested in.
YOUNG: Yes.
HOLMES: They get together, but then there's all of this tension. She - there's a certain kind of woman on this show where...
(LAUGHTER)
HOLMES: ...The way they approach this...
YOUNG: Wait a minute, wait a minute...
HOLMES: ...Or the way they approach this is they get the proposal, they get into the relationship, and then they push and push and push and push and push and really just try to keep being as angry as possible all the time. And the more angry they are, if the guy keeps accommodating them, then that's love, you know? And Chelsea to me is kind of one of those, right?
HARRIS: Yes, very much.
HILL: So, OK, first things first. I want to acknowledge something that was very validating in our pre-show conversation because I have been keeping notes on all of these couples, and I had them as Jimmy and Lauren with a question mark until the very last episode.
(LAUGHTER)
HILL: So - and I was like, I don't know if that's her name. Every episode, I have no idea if I'm getting these people's names right.
HARRIS: Yeah, same.
HOLMES: I will just add here that this season also has a Jimmy...
YOUNG: Yes.
HOLMES: ...And a Johnny.
HARRIS: And a Jeremy.
YOUNG: And a Laura, but not a Lauren.
(LAUGHTER)
HOLMES: Particularly as between Jimmy and Johnny, I was trying to remember, like, who is the good one and who is the bad one?
HILL: Yes. Yeah.
HOLMES: So I actually - in my head, I went through Johnny Be Good and Jimmy be the other one.
YOUNG: Yes.
HILL: (Laughter) That's amazing.
YOUNG: I like it.
HILL: So Ronald, I am actively changing Lauren to Laura in my notes. We'll deal with that later.
YOUNG: There we go.
HILL: But with Jimmy and Chelsea particularly, I felt like they had three different breakup conversations that didn't end as breakups.
HARRIS: Mmm-hmmm. Yes.
HILL: And every time they had a conversation, I would hear, like, that horror music (imitating "Psycho" strings) in the background.
(LAUGHTER)
HILL: And in my notes, I wrote down, like, I'm one conversation away from being swayed that either Jimmy is really, really terrible and Lauren's insecurity was totally founded...
YOUNG: You mean Chelsea.
HILL: Oh, God, yes, Chelsea. I literally wrote down Lauren.
(LAUGHTER)
HILL: Chelsea's insecurity...
HARRIS: Lauren hurts.
HILL: ...Was totally founded, on one hand, but on the other hand, I could also believe that Chelsea kind of like begged for validation in every single scene...
HARRIS: Right.
HILL: ...And there was nothing that he could have done that would have ever been enough.
HARRIS: Yeah. They're both wrong.
YOUNG: Yes.
HARRIS: I'm on no one's team.
HILL: Well, and then I was thinking to myself, like, toward the end, like, these are two people who clearly should be with the other person that they were interested in. Go that way. Please don't get married.
HARRIS: The rule of this show at the beginning, or, like, the experiment, as it were, is you're not supposed to be - know what these people look like. You can kind of guess or whatever, but you're not supposed to know.
YOUNG: I know where this is going.
HARRIS: Yeah. A couple of couples faced a moment where they wanted to know. They're like, so what do you look like? Or, like, can you give me a hint? And one couple, who I'm sure we will mention soon enough, like, that doesn't go down quite well.
HOLMES: Yeah.
HARRIS: And for the other one, you know, Chelsea plays along with it. She says something along the lines of like, oh, you know, people always tell me I kind of look like, Megan Fox.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "LOVE IS BLIND")
JIMMY: Megan Fox? Are you saying you look like Megan Fox?
CHELSEA: It's just because I have light eyes and dark hair. That's the only reason. There's nothing else. At least I'm assuming so.
JIMMY: I mean...
HARRIS: And then I want to play this clip. This is Jimmy's initial reaction after they've gotten engaged and they're meeting for the first time, and he finally sees her.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "LOVE IS BLIND")
JIMMY: She definitely lied to me on some - how she looked. Chelsea told me she looked like Megan Fox.
CHELSEA: I'm so sweaty.
JIMMY: But, you know, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. I'm very attracted to her. I can work with that.
YOUNG: I can work with that is not an endorsem*nt.
HOLMES: No. Well, the other thing is she also - when she told him I get Megan Fox, she was like, I'm not saying I look like Megan Fox. And what he took in was she says she looks like Megan Fox.
YOUNG: Yeah, but like, what do you - I mean, if somebody asked me, they said, Ronald, what do you look like? And I'm like, some people say I resemble The Rock because I'm bald, and then they were like, you look like The Rock. I think it really is hard to, like, put the toothpaste back in the tube in that case, 'cause it's like, no, don't invoke The Rock 'cause that's all that - they're going to see, like, 6'3", like, ripped, and that's like not the message that you actually want to send.
HOLMES: It's true.
HILL: As a person who has been a stand in for The Rock in a movie and had to explain that to people...
HOLMES: Wait.
YOUNG: Wait, wait.
HILL: ...When it comes up in conversation...
HOLMES: Wait, wait. Really?
HILL: Yeah. No.
HARRIS: OK. That's a side conversation after...
YOUNG: Yeah (laughter).
HARRIS: ...This episode.
HOLMES: Whole other episode.
HILL: But, like, what's so interesting to me with this one was, like, I always heard the last thing that Jimmy says in their meeting there, which was, it doesn't matter to me what you look like, which is I don't like what you look like...
YOUNG: Yes.
HILL: ...Right?
YOUNG: Yes.
HILL: And, like, so that's why I was saying, like, I could be swayed either direction with Chelsea, with her insecurity, because, like, on some level, it is founded because there is...
HARRIS: Right.
HILL: ...A reason to feel like he's not into her. He's not.
YOUNG: Right.
HOLMES: Right.
HILL: Or he has made himself that way, or he is, like, fallen into her more so than in that moment when he met her, 'cause she didn't look like Megan Fox to him.
HOLMES: Yeah. And, like, I'm sorry, but, like, Jimmy - Jimmy's a perfectly OK looking dude, but, like, Jimmy's not necessarily a guy where I'm like, you know, if you asked me, what does Jimmy look like? I would not...
HILL: A thumb.
HOLMES: ...Necessarily say he looks like Megan Fox's boyfriend, you know what I mean?
HARRIS: No. You could go to any college in the Midwest, go to a bar, there will be 15 men who look just like Jimmy. Like, that is what it is.
HOLMES: Yes...
HILL: Well, but, like...
HOLMES: ...Agreed.
HILL: ...That's been a very consistent theme on this show. I remember thinking, like, there's a lot of guys on this show that come in and they get rated so much more highly than they might somewhere else...
YOUNG: Yeah.
HILL: ...Right? And, like, then they have these conversations about how hot the people were that they were dating.
HARRIS: Yeah. Yeah.
HILL: You're like, I know they weren't this fine...
(LAUGHTER)
HILL: ...Right? Like, I know they weren't as hot as this person. And, like, we've seen that happen time and time again throughout this show.
HOLMES: Yeah. I do want to talk about the other couple that had that conversation about what do you look like.
HILL: AD all day. AD.
(LAUGHTER)
HOLMES: So there's this couple, Clay and AD, and when he asked what she looks like, he made it a little more explicit...
YOUNG: Yeah.
HOLMES: ...That he was asking, you're not fat, are you?
YOUNG: Oh, my God.
HARRIS: Yeah...
HOLMES: Like...
HARRIS: ...Yeah.
HOLMES: ...It was a little bit clearer because he mentioned I like petite. And listen, if you've been on dating apps around dudes...
YOUNG: Yeah.
HOLMES: ...They got a million ways to say it. And he found a pretty straightforward way to put that question to her. And she did not like it. He was the Shake of this season. Like...
YOUNG: Diet Shake.
HOLMES: Yes. Yes.
YOUNG: Yeah. I will say, like, when they had that conversation, I remember feeling uneasy as he was saying it, because I think the premise is false, because they say the premise is love is blind, but the premise is actually, can you meet a stranger and get married in a few weeks?
HOLMES: Well, exactly.
HARRIS: Yeah.
YOUNG: But for me, like, when they start to skirt around the actual blindness part of the love, they're basically saying, I am starting to like you, I do not want to be disappointed, which I feel like is just one of those things where I'm like, well then what is all this really for then? If you, like, like the person, then shouldn't you be interrogating...
HARRIS: Right.
YOUNG: ...Your own feelings about what they look like...
HARRIS: Yes.
YOUNG: ...When you see them, as opposed to trying to, like, make sure that everything's OK when you actually see them?
HOLMES: Well, the other thing is, listen, unless something changes, there are no fat people on "Love Is Blind"...
YOUNG: Never.
HOLMES: ...So you don't have to worry about it anyway.
YOUNG: No.
HOLMES: And as it turns out, AD is a petite woman with a very curvy body. She has a very traditionally hot bod. So...
HARRIS: She's a former dancer for, like, the Patriots, I think.
YOUNG: Yeah.
HOLMES: Aisha, what did you think of them?
HARRIS: OK. So this was the couple that really, like, to me, was so fascinating to watch. And this is a social experiment. Not in the way that the show intends, but, like, definitely in terms of how it, like, brings up people's own relationship issues. And with Clay, this was the most, like, clear cut example on this show that we've seen so far of a dude who has daddy issues up the wazoo.
YOUNG: Yeah.
HARRIS: This is, like, very much giving Jerrod Carmichael Rothaniel vibes where he was like, my father was a very suave guy, and he was married to my mother for years. But, like, he cheated on her, and then, like, he sometimes took me with him on his cheating dates. So, like, he's dealing with all of this stuff, and then he keeps telling AD, like, I really wouldn't want to let you down. I'm worried I'm going to cheat. And I'm like, girl, run.
HILL: Yes.
HARRIS: Then there's a moment - he's talking about his dad, but then he goes into, like, talking about Black celebrities. Can we also play this clip? - because it's - there's so much happening in this, like, sentence. And her face just says, like, I'm just going to ignore all the flags, all the signs.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "LOVE IS BLIND")
CLAY GRAVESANDE: All the celebrities, like the Diddys and stuff like that - those are Black men that I like to look at.
AD SMITH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
GRAVESANDE: And it's like they always had - you always hear they have other women. So to me, the concept of one girl...
SMITH: Yeah.
GRAVESANDE: I'm always having a fear of, like, can I just be with one person?
SMITH: Oh.
GRAVESANDE: I take it serious.
HARRIS: Maya Angelou herself said, if someone shows you who they are...
HOLMES: Yeah.
HARRIS: ...Believe them the first time. I'm paraphrasing, but, like, come on.
HILL: So Aisha, I hear where you're coming from on this, and I actually think you're generally right. And...
(LAUGHTER)
HILL: As my co-author, Tre'vell Anderson, would say, however, comma...
(LAUGHTER)
HILL: I think that I would agree with you more wholly if there was not also the follow-up to those conversations, right? Like as a person who has dated many a Clay in my day or has known many a Clay in my day, I think that there's something important about recognizing that what he's saying is honest and true.
HARRIS: Oh, I'm not digging him for that at all...
HILL: No, no, no.
HARRIS: ...To be clear. Yeah, yeah.
HILL: Yeah. But, like, I think that when Black men, especially in this kind of space - like, we're really hard on Black men about vulnerability and not being vulnerable. And, like, there's a lot of things that contribute to why that is, right? That happens for a reason. But I think that when a person like Clay is, like, open and saying, like, I grew up in this kind of way; I had this type of experience, and it has informed the way that I think in this way; as I'm going into this, I want to do this with you - because, like, I think the follow-up to that was always like, but I want to be here. And I want to be that man for you, and I want to try. And, like, if he didn't have that piece of it, it would feel very straight male podcast.
HARRIS: Yeah.
HILL: Right? And you'd be like, oh, yikes.
HARRIS: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
HILL: That follow-up piece of it is what always made me root for him in the end because there were a lot of those moments where you'd be like, now, hold up now.
HARRIS: Yeah.
HILL: Right? Like, now, what now?
HARRIS: Yes, yes.
YOUNG: See; the thing is I didn't believe him, though. Like, I hear you, Jarrett.
HOLMES: Oh, I did. I did believe him.
HILL: I did.
YOUNG: I'm just sitting there listening and saying, are you seeding the conversation with this in order to prepare her for something horrible that you're going to do, like, when you're not...
HOLMES: Right.
YOUNG: ...Coming home at night, when you're doing your job and all that?
HARRIS: Yeah.
YOUNG: You know?
HARRIS: And that's kind of where I lean, too, where it's like, I can see it in the middle somehow because I think we've gotten to a point now where - we live in this era of, like, therapy speak. And so everyone - most people know the things that they're supposed to say.
YOUNG: Yeah.
HARRIS: And then they might say it.
YOUNG: Yeah.
HARRIS: And maybe he thinks he believes it, but, like, at the same time, it's like, he says several times, like, I don't think I'm ready to get married. And you chose a show where the explicit purpose is for you to eventually get married.
HOLMES: This is where I come down - is that the thing that makes this show so vexing and fascinating to me is that you wind up rooting, as a human being, for someone to do the thing that frustrates the purpose of the show because, you know, you're watching the two of them together. And I think, like, first of all, yes, they have great chemistry. But they also clearly, like, really like each other. They get along. There are moments where she kind of annoyed me. She decided to insert herself into some other people's drama in a way that I thought was not necessary.
YOUNG: Yes. That was weird.
HOLMES: And the logical thing to do - like, let's say you meet in the most ridiculous way possible, which is you meet on "Love Is Blind." Let's say you genuinely really like each other. Now, once in a blue moon, you're going to be Johnny and Amy, and you're actually going to decide, we're both comfortable getting married after knowing each other for a few weeks.
HARRIS: And also after not having sex.
YOUNG: Not according to AD.
HOLMES: Well...
YOUNG: And I agree with AD.
HARRIS: Well, so they say.
HOLMES: So they say. You kind of want Clay to do the decent and right thing, which is to say, I don't want to marry you right now. That's a recipe for disaster.
HARRIS: Well, and he does. But AD...
HOLMES: And he does do that. But the thing is AD has this thing in her head where she's really, like, quote-unquote, "committed to the experiment." So she feels like, you know, the commitment is important. So we have to stick to, as she puts it, this timeline that we committed to.
HARRIS: Which is, like, six weeks, maybe.
HOLMES: When I like them, what I want for these people is to frustrate the purpose of the show and be like, we're just going to refuse to get married but keep dating. And it almost never happens, and it's always what I want. If they like each other, it's what I want.
HILL: I'm fully there with you. I think that one of the things that frustrates me in the show - in these kinds of shows is, like, my media brain where I'm always, like, aware of the fact that this is a show. And, like, I'm not one of those people who thinks that people are stupid for falling in love on these kinds of things. I'm like, this is a scenario that is literally engineered for you to fall in love with someone. So it's not hard to imagine that it could happen.
HOLMES: Yeah.
HILL: I also get frustrated when people are like, oh, my God. I was so devastated that you still had feelings for someone else. And then the parenthetical of that is that you broke up with three days ago.
HARRIS: Right.
HILL: Right? You know what I mean?
HARRIS: Exactly.
HILL: And so, like, the idea that you still might have some kind of feeling about this person is not unreasonable. But in the show, they're like, it's just mind-blowing to me that this whole time, you still felt a thing. And it's like, this whole process is absurd. So let's not act like we're in the real world and like these scenarios are not what they are.
HOLMES: Imagine agreeing to marry somebody who picked you just barely...
HILL: Yeah.
HOLMES: ...Last month, you know...
HILL: Yes.
HOLMES: ...Over another person that they otherwise would have entered into an effort to marry.
HARRIS: Yes.
HOLMES: Yeah. And Aisha, you know, on the topic of Clay and AD, I think you had some thoughts about Clay's parents, who we do get a chance to meet.
HARRIS: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think Jarrett made a really great point about, you know, how it's nice to see a Black man being very vulnerable and honest about his position and how...
HILL: Yeah.
HARRIS: ...He grew up. At the wedding, after Clay decides - I can't marry you - at the altar, there's just this really lovely moment between Clay's mom and dad, who are no longer together, but they stayed together for a very long time. And his mom actually tries to explain to his dad, like, what you did really messed up your son. Here's a moment from that.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "LOVE IS BLIND")
MARGARITA GRAVESANDE: Again, I'm divorced from you, but things that he shared with me that I did not know, so that's where I'm saying he took a lot on his back. And although we came from broken families, that doesn't mean that we have to pass on that brokenness to our kids.
TREVOR GRAVESANDE: Absolutely.
HARRIS: And it's just a really sweet moment. But it's also the type of, like, clarity that can only come from wisdom and age.
HILL: Yeah.
HARRIS: And this is a show where everyone's just jumping into everything. Clay obviously has a lot more wisdom and age to have before he can get to that point.
HILL: Yeah.
HARRIS: But I just really loved that moment.
HILL: Yeah.
HARRIS: And like, I feel as though Clay and AD, they really could have worked if she wasn't so committed to that timeline.
YOUNG: I think two things can be true here. And I think hearing Clay talk about his father - and even when I hear other, like, Black men talk about their fathers or talk about the example that they have that prevents them from being good in relationship - I hear them, and I understand that. There's some idea in my mind of saying like, are you copping out a bit? Are you not doing the actual work it takes to, like, break the generational curse and go in the other direction?
But then when you meet Clay's father and you see this interaction, like, I feel like there was a lot of grace that kind of returned to me to say that, especially when his mother says out loud that he took this on his shoulders. And he's 30. And I'm thinking about, like, dealing with this with your parents and looking at them and how that could, like, you know, mess up your paradigm of, like, what you think a relationship is. It just really gave me a lot of compassion for them in the moment. But there was still a part of me that felt a little skeptical about how he was approaching his relationship...
HOLMES: Yeah.
YOUNG: ...With AD. But that certainly gave me a lot more context.
HILL: I saw the father-son moment as really, really beautiful. But something that rang in my ear was Clay saying, that's the most he's ever poured into me in my entire life.
HARRIS: Yep.
HILL: And I did think to myself, like, oh, so this is not common.
YOUNG: Yeah.
HILL: The thing that really resonated for me as a person whose parents divorced when I was 9 - my dad remarried and re-divorced (ph). And...
HOLMES: Yeah.
HILL: ...But I've also seen like a lot of other divorces in my life. My grandparents divorced after 30-some-odd years and things like that. I think we can overemphasize the importance of representation sometimes. I think that sometimes there are many other things that we should be concerned about when we're thinking about the work that we have to do to be a better country and a better culture. But I was really, really grateful in the moment seeing that happen on screen.
YOUNG: Yeah.
HILL: And I mentioned my co-author, Tre'vell Anderson, in their book, "We See Each Other: A Black, Trans Journey Through TV And Film," they talk about how unscripted television is a place that we get to see representation in a different kind of way...
HARRIS: Yeah.
HILL: ...That can be a little bit more unfiltered or a little bit more, you know, under, like, written and things like that. And so it was really, really beautiful actually, to see that as a person who just had my mom and stepdad and my dad and stepmom all at my house for brunch...
HARRIS: Oof (ph).
HILL: ...For the first time.
HOLMES: I've been there.
HILL: You know what I mean?
HARRIS: Yeah.
HILL: And so, like, to see that I was like, oh, wow, I love that we're having this moment.
YOUNG: We also have to mention that that conversation continued. And I think the part that's also, like, resonating on social media is when she says, you didn't treat me right, and then says, and that's all we're going to talk about anymore. And I think that put the punctuation on the sentence in a way that I felt was necessary in both of their reactions when they saw it. So it was great.
HOLMES: Yeah, yeah. So we are going to make a little bit of a hard turn to talk about Jeramey and Laura. Aisha, there was definitely some drama with Jeramey and Laura. Tell me how that happened.
HARRIS: They had a whole thing. Classic "Love Is Blind" scenario where Jeramey clearly still has feelings - is still talking to someone else he was already talking to in the pods. One of my favorite tropes of this show is how once they're back into, like, the, quote-unquote, "real world" - 'cause they all live in the general area - the same city as everyone else who's on the show - is that, like, there's always, like, them all going out. And then they're telling people, oh, well, so-and-so said they saw you out the other night...
YOUNG: Yeah.
HARRIS: ...And it's like, this is, like, this little ecosystem of people who, like, all of a sudden are all connected and see each other out.
HILL: Yeah.
HARRIS: Jeramey comes home apparently very late, and - I'm sorry, I've got another clip. But, like, this was like a classic messy scene when Laura confronts Jeramey.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "LOVE IS BLIND")
JERAMEY LUTINSKI: I'm sorry for that. But, like, as an extra layer of reassurance, like, I shared my location with you, like, just so you knew exactly where I was at.
LAURA DADISMAN: How was that supposed to give any reassurance? Nor do I want to be engaged to someone to where I need that level of reassurance, where I need to follow their location. [Expletive] no.
HARRIS: (Singing) Friday night, you and your boys...
HILL: Yes.
HARRIS: ...(Singing) Went out to eat.
(LAUGHTER)
HARRIS: Like, it was giving...
(APPLAUSE)
HARRIS: ...That whole thing was giving me, it's not right. It's, like - she's like, the bar's closed at 2. You didn't come home till 5:30.
YOUNG: Yeah.
HARRIS: Why was your phone in the parking lot? Like, (laughter) the whole thing - but Jeramey was just like...
YOUNG: Yeah.
HARRIS: ...He was - he felt to me like the dirtbag of the whole season. Yes, like, all the other men had their issues. But the fact that he thought that him and this other woman, apparently, who he saw while he was out, were just talking for three hours after the bar closed.
HOLMES: In his car.
HARRIS: Yeah, in his car (laughter)...
HILL: First of all...
HARRIS: ...Maybe.
HILL: ...All, if six of y'all went out, then four of you were really cheap reference is just sitting...
(LAUGHTER)
HILL: ...Right here. And so I just want to honor Whitney. The trouble that I had with this argument was I could see it from both sides.
HARRIS: Right.
HILL: I understand how he thinks what he did was a good thing...
HARRIS: Right.
HILL: ...Right? Because he's like, I want you to know where I am. And he felt, I think - or I could see him feeling like this was him trying to be transparent and open and honest, regardless of the fact that it was the middle of the night. And to her point, like, I don't want to have to be checking up on you like that.
YOUNG: Yeah.
HILL: If I have to, you know, be going through your phone and stuff like that, we've already kind of breached a trust point that I'm not really interested in still being connected.
YOUNG: Yes.
HILL: So I understood where both of them were coming from. But I think that it also said to me, though, he knew that he was doing something precarious.
HOLMES: Oh, no question.
YOUNG: Yes.
HARRIS: At the end of the day, I feel like this is one of the biggest things that this show always comes across. Is that, like, when you think about the shortened time period...
HOLMES: Yeah.
HARRIS: ...No relationship should have to get to that point. But it feels like because everything is so rushed, you have all these things happening when they shouldn't be happening this - or, like, if they're going to happen, they shouldn't be happening, like, a month into your relationship. Like, that is a sign that it is not working. And to Linda's point earlier, there's still always that, like, compressed timeline where you're just like, you just broke up with this person or you, like, decided not to date them outside of the pods a week ago, you can't expect them to all of a sudden just throw that all away. It's just...
HOLMES: Right.
HARRIS: None of this is reasonable.
HOLMES: And it's interesting that you talk about, like, the expectation that somebody just absolutely ignore the other person immediately because one of the other things that came up, it was with Jeramey and Laura.
HARRIS: Yes.
HOLMES: One of the other things that came up with them was that the other woman that he had been dating...
YOUNG: Yes.
HOLMES: ...Had kind of messaged him and said, you know, I really enjoyed getting to know you, and listen, if anything ever changes, I would love to get to know you, right?
HARRIS: Yes.
HOLMES: Which, in a way, is - I didn't personally think was that terrible of a thing to do...
HILL: I don't think so, either.
HOLMES: ...But a lot of the people on the show thought it was an incredibly terrible thing to do. Like, you're intruding on someone's engagement and you're doing this with an engaged guy and it's like, well, yes, but I don't know.
HARRIS: Well, my other side of that is that, like, Sarah Ann, who's the one who was texting him, again, this is every - now of, like, the last six seasons, it's become a trope where there is always - usually a women - who, as soon as they are dumped in the pods, they put on their villain hat, they're like, I'm going to be the Omarosa of the season and then, like, well, you didn't pick me, but as soon as you see me, you are going to want me, and I'm going to go after you. And I'm not - it doesn't feel in a genuine way of, like, we really connected. It's more like, I'm upset that you didn't choose me, and now I'm going to make you regret that you didn't choose me.
HILL: So Aisha, I love you.
(LAUGHTER)
HILL: And I understand how you get there. A lot of therapy talk, right? Like, hey, however, comma...
HARRIS: Give it to me. Give it to me.
HILL: ...I understand how you arrived there. The framing of it is what's hard for me, because the way that you framed it was like they put on their villain hat and they're like, well, I didn't come here to make friends. I came here to find love, right? And one of those...
YOUNG: Yeah.
HILL: ...Kinds of things.
HARRIS: I mean, I get that vibe.
HILL: I don't know that the decision and practical application is, like, now it's time for me to be the villain, you know what I mean? I think it's more so like, I still love him, right? Or I'm still up thinking about him. I didn't - we just ended this conversation and he's, like, invisible. And just now I see him on Instagram and I'm like, listen, I know we were both in this experiment together, but if it doesn't work out, like, holla.
YOUNG: Yeah.
HILL: I don't think that's unreasonable. We all met three weeks ago in this show, like, you know what I mean? And, like, that wasn't even the real world.
HARRIS: Yeah. I take that point, and maybe I'm being a little harsh on her. I just feel as though Season 1 of "Love Is Blind" felt a little bit more pure in terms of everyone who was on the show of their - people's intentions than it does six seasons later when people know how to spin it. It seems more so, like, a lot of them are just like, I want to gain new followers or I want to launch this podcast. Like, and that was the vibe I got from her. I don't think it's true of everyone, but I don't know, she just wasn't sitting right with my soul.
HOLMES: I can definitely see her turning out as like a contouring influencer.
HARRIS: Yes.
HOLMES: Yeah.
YOUNG: Netflix is also encouraging this though, y'all.
HOLMES: I know.
YOUNG: It's like they're putting them in these rooms with these people, like, on purpose.
HOLMES: Oh, for sure.
HARRIS: Yes.
YOUNG: And they have access to their phones and all that in the way they don't on "The Bachelor" or the other shows. So I'm like, it seems like they're encouraging this type of behavior in a lot of ways.
HOLMES: Well, you know, I look at this and what I take away from this entire conversation, truly, is that you walk away with a really different sense of these people depending on whether you think the whole thing is a farce or whether you think it's real feelings.
HARRIS: Right.
HOLMES: All right. Well, I want to talk to you guys about "Love Is Blind" for three or four hours, but unfortunately, the producers are going to pull the plug on me here any minute now. We want to know what you think about this season of "Love Is Blind." Find us at facebook.com/pchh. And that brings us to the end of our show. Jarrett Hill, Ronald Young Jr., Aisha Harris, thank you so much for being here. This was a wonderful interruption to my Oscar season.
YOUNG: (Laughter).
HARRIS: Thank you, Linda.
HILL: Thanks for having us.
YOUNG: See you at Season 7.
HOLMES: Absolutely. We wanted to take a minute to thank our POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR+ subscribers. We appreciate you so much for showing your support of NPR. If you haven't signed up yet, you want to show your support and you'd like to listen to this show without any sponsor breaks, head over to plus.npr.org/happyhour or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by the very patient Hafsa Fathima and Mike Katzif and edited by Jessica Reedy. Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. I'm Linda Holmes, and we'll see you all tomorrow.
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